No start, then start, what happened?

[fyrfytr1717]

First off my '99 has 94K on the clock, 4.0 with an AW4. Yesterday I went to start it up to follow my wife to Carmax so we could trade in her Patriot. I put the key in and turned it and got nothing. Nada. Zip. No beeps, no lights, no noises, just dead.

I put a DVM on the battery and it showed 0 volts. I hooked up a spare Optima I have laying around with some jumper cables and the Jeep came back to life. Tried to start it but the spare battery didn't seem to have enough juice.

Not believing the battery could actually be at 0V, I disconnected my battery cables (all of which were replaced about a year ago) and put the DVM on the battery again. Now it showed 12.5V. Hooked the cables back up again, 0V. Took them off again, 12.5V. Put them on, 0V. Guess I'm a slow learner...

Next I hooked it up to my wife's car for a jump. Using the old feather the throttle while cranking the engine trick I got it to start. As I let off the throttle, it sputtered and died. Fired it up again, ran it for a bit at high RPMs, and finally got it to idle on its own. When I dropped it into gear, it tried to die on me again. I started driving it like I had a dead battery (dropped into neutral around slow corners and at stops so I could throttle up to keep it from dying) and the voltage gauge on the dash would drop each time I started to slow down.

About 1/2 mile into my drive, the voltage gauge suddenly pegged to the max side of the scale and my Check Gauges light came on. I cruised along for just a bit and then decided it was time to pull over. I tried to flash my high beams at my wife to let her know I was pulling over and as soon as I pulled the high beam switch the Jeep completely died, voltage gauge still pegged at max even though everything else was completely dead.

Fiddled around with it for a bit on the side of the road and got the same 12.5V and 0V readings off the battery. Smelled a bit of an electrical smell. I started pulling leads off one by one to see if I had a short or a ground issue with one of my mains. In the process I discovered that if either the + or - was completely disconnected from the battery I once again got a reading, though I seem to recall it was only about 10.5V.

I was starting to suspect a failing alternator so I pulled the ANL fuse connecting it to the PDC and tried to start the engine. Still nothing. In a last ditch effort I tried jumping it off my wife's car again with the fuse still pulled. It started up and I limped it home and parked it in the driveway. Left it for the day while we sold the Patriot (which interestingly enough had an intermittent no start issue) and I did not get a chance to play with it until today, two days later.

Checked the battery voltage and it was normal. Replaced the ANL fuse and voltage was still normal. Got in, fired right up. All voltage readings normal. 12.5V with the ignition off, 13.8V with the motor running. Tried all switches, lights, etc. and could not get it to even stutter a little. Sprayed the alternator with the hose and a little muddy water came out, likely due to the snow/mud trip I went on last week. Other possible contributing factors are that I also gave the engine compartment a pretty good rinsing last week, and that was in the middle of a week of pretty heavy rain. I had driven at least 100 trouble free miles between the time all of the above occurred and the time it died. Weather has been dry the last few days. So what the heck happened? I think the Patriot did it, what do you think?...

 

[fyrfytr1717]

Sorry, guess my post was too long to keep anyone's interest... No one willing to take a stab at it? Fouled up alternator, wet TPS, wet CPS, problem with the ASD Relay? Just want to try to figure out if there's a part on the verge of failing that needs to be replaced.

 

[DezertTitan]

I read it... Wish I had an answer for you, I've got a lot to learn myself tho, as I have some issues with mine I am trying to figure out! Hope you find an answer.

 

[Shorty]

how were you checking battery voltage?

If you were actually touching the battery posts when it was showing 0.0V, and the only thing changed was the removal of cables to get 12.5V, I'd suspect a damaged battery. The internal "strap" that connects the post to the plates can fail and be very touchy.

Extended high-current draws (winching, monster amps, etc) can overheat the strap and weaken it quickly.

Tons of battery cables hanging loosely can fatigue the post mounting point and cause failure.

Loose battery hold down can allow the battery to constantly shift and damage the posts/straps.

If you were checking voltage on the cable ends (instead of posts)--

Any of the above problems are still possible along with poor connections between the post and terminal ends.

 

[srmitchell]

Bad battery. It's that simple.
When mine went bad, I went to start it, totally dead.
Once it was jumped, it ran rough, the volt gauge pegged at 19, and the lights flickered. I would shut it off to avoid damage, and it'd be 100% dead again, needing a jump.

New battery and it was fine. (until my alt started to fail)

 

[fyrfytr1717]

Thanks for the replies guys, I think you may be on to something! Shorty, I was checking the battery directly at the posts and on the marine terminals I'm using. That rules out the quality of the wiring connections as the problem. The positive post feels like it can rotate ever so slightly so I was wondering if maybe there was a bad connection in there.

srmitchell, sounds like you had the exact same symptoms I had. Maybe I should have posted up my problem in your thread yesterday.

Here's my battery and terminals:

The battery is strapped down and I can rock the entire vehicle by pushing on it so I don't think it is shifting around. I'm running a 75W amp to an 8 inch sub-woofer and have only used my winch for maybe 2 or 3 short pulls so I don't think I've overloaded it. I do have extra battery cables running off the terminals, 3 on the negative and 4 on the positive, but nothing really out of the ordinary compared to any other set of upgraded mains I've seen. When I disconnect them from the posts, the terminals want to stay right where they are. With the cables bolted together the way they are they seem to support each other, I have to actually hold them out of the way to remove the battery. Are the posts really that fragile that the weight of the cables would fatigue them?

So tell me more about this "strap" you were referring to. It is simply the conductor that connects the battery post to the plates? Is there no slack in it at all? Why if the battery was reading 12.5V would connecting the battery cables cause the battery to read 0V? Now that it seems to be working properly, how can I check for a bad strap? How can I recreate the 0V reading so that Sears will warranty my battery?

Could I have broken the strap by turning the battery post? Here's what I'm thinking... When I snug down that nut holding all my positive cables onto the marine terminal, the marine terminal tries turn in the same direction. As the marine terminal tries to turn, it acts as a lever on the battery post and tries to turn it. I'm usually very careful about supporting the marine terminal by holding onto the battery cables while I'm tightening the nut, but as I mentioned before, the positive terminal does rotate ever so slightly (like maybe 1/16") in the battery case. Could this indicate that I damaged the strap by putting too much torque on the post?

 

[Johnnie Walker]

Looks fairily new, go exchange it at sears (or where you got it from). Should be free.

 

[Keekleberrys]

From what I hear those battery posts on the odyssey/diehard platinum batterys can break from just inch lbs of torque. only bad thing i have heard about that battery. I have the same one you do and absolutely love it. Have left my lights on several times and it hasnt let me down yet.

 

[GrimmJeeper]

So tell me more about this "strap" you were referring to. It is simply the conductor that connects the battery post to the plates? Is there no slack in it at all? Why if the battery was reading 12.5V would connecting the battery cables cause the battery to read 0V? Now that it seems to be working properly, how can I check for a bad strap? How can I recreate the 0V reading so that Sears will warranty my battery?

A load test on the battery will answer that last question pretty quick. Mine was doing the same thing after a trip to the desert, and when I took it out to exchange it I could feel one of the plates moving around inside

This is what the inside of a typical lead-acid battery looks like, just plates and straps connecting them. You can see the potential for failure both in the layout of the internal connections and the connection between the post and the plates inside. Conventional batterys suck for wheeling, they don't like vibration and as mentioned above high current loads can burn up the delicate connections inside.. which is why so many people run an optima or similar drycell battery. gel cells use a similar internal design to the acid filled batteries and are prone to the same failures.

 

[fyrfytr1717]

Based upon the info you all have provided, I'm going to guess the connection (strap) between the positive post and the plates is either fractured or completely broken. If you look at the picture below, you will see the base of the post is hexagonal and it is surrounded by a circular piece of plastic. While the shape of the post base keeps it from rotating within the circular part, that circular part can rotate within the lid of the battery case. It only moves a tiny bit, but my negative post doesn't move at all. I think that's my sign...

Well, if a load test will reveal the weakness in my battery, I guess I'm off to Sears tomorrow... Thanks Grimm!

 

[GrimmJeeper]

In the future I'd refrain from stacking so many heavy gauge wires on the terminal itself, Instead run one 0g cable to a junction block, then connect all your other cables to that. It may help avoid this problem happening again (if that's what it was).

Similar to this:

I've never ordered from this company I just found them on the web while looking for that pic http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/en-us/p913.html

 

[Shorty]

... that circular part can rotate within the lid of the battery case. It only moves a tiny bit, but my negative post doesn't move at all. I think that's my sign...

I'm back to check in on ya--

It sounds like grimmie has steered you in the right direction. One of the first signs of damage to the "strap" being damaged is movement of the post-- I'm gonna say it's definitely sounding bad.

When you have Sears test it, make sure you point out the movement and have them manipulate it during the test-- it's possible to have it pass a load test and still be bad if the strap is making good contact at the time they test it.

 

[Mbjeep91]

In the future I'd refrain from stacking so many heavy gauge wires on the terminal itself, Instead run one 0g cable to a junction block, then connect all your other cables to that. It may help avoid this problem happening again (if that's what it was).

Similar to this:

I've never ordered from this company I just found them on the web while looking for that pic http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/en-us/p913.html

Agreed, any time you have that many cables stacked on a battery post you are begging for trouble.

 

[fyrfytr1717]

Well, now I know about the cables. Never realized that was a problem, thought I was doing it right. I'm not even sure where I'd have room to squeeze in a pair of those posts, but maybe I'll have to try if this continues to be a problem, which brings me to my next problem...

I brought my battery down to Sears today to have it checked. They load tested it on the big built in Die-Hard machine and they tested it on one of the roll around battery testers. Both indicated that the battery checked out OK. I mentioned the loose post to the guy testing it, but I don't think he felt is was much of a problem as you can't hardly turn the post using just your fingers. It moves much easier once there's a terminal on it. He didn't try turning it during the test, but I'm not really sure how he would be able to anyways with that big test clamp on there.

So now what? I asked him what my options were and he said that I could leave the battery with him to have the "other" manager make a decision as to whether or not it could be warrantied based upon the loose post. I agreed and left it.

One of the mechanics overheard us talking and I explained to him what happened when it failed. As soon as he heard that the voltage gauge pegged at max, he immediately offered up that the voltage regulator in my alternator was bad. I told him that the battery showed 0V when it failed and he just said that seemed weird.

 

[srmitchell]

The voltage regulator is internal in the PCM, and not likely to go out.

 

[fyrfytr1717]

The voltage regulator is internal in the PCM, and not likely to go out.

Yeah, I told him that too. That's when he realized that I had some idea of what I was talking about and decided to tell me that it "seemed weird" instead of trying to BS me anymore.

So I just called DieHard Customer Service to get a second opinion about my battery. I was asking the technician about the movement in my post and before I could even finish asking if it was normal, he said "No, bring it to your local Sears to get it warrantied." He continued by saying that there should be no movement at all as he believed the post and the piece it is attached to inside the battery are actually cast as one solid piece.

My battery is date stamped 12/09 and I believe I bought it right around then too. The Platinums have a 4-year free replacement warranty and 100 months pro-rated limited warranty. Figure I should be good to go...

I think I'll see if they'll swap it out for the straight up Size 34 instead of the 34/78 Dual Terminal I have now. I don't use the side terminals anyways (for obvious reasons) and they actually just hang off the main posts inside a little plastic sleeve. They're just another failure waiting to happen.

 

[fyrfytr1717]

Well, the "other" manager never called today so I dropped by Sears in the late afternoon and nobody even knew my battery was there. I told the guy that was helping me what the DieHard representative told me. After a few different people took turns trying to turn the terminal post on my battery, they agreed to replace it.

I talked them into letting me trade it in for the Size 34 instead of the 34/78 Dual Terminal job I had in there. Hopefully the posts are stronger without that extra crap tacked on there. Due to the change in model, he did it as a return followed by the purchase of a new battery instead of as a warranty replacement. I think this just bought me another 4 year free replacement period instead of tacking on to my previous warranty! I'm 99.9% sure this is going to take care of my no start problem. I'll take care of relocating the battery cables once I figure out a good place to put those gathering posts. Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Lodi Jim]

For future reference, when using dual post batteries, run the engine on the side post.
Put your High Amp load on the Top Post.
How many Amps does a Starter draw versus how many Amps a Winch draws.
And I like that idea of the Junction block.